MAIL - 7

I Wrote –

Dear Friend

God said worship the Creator and not the idol. You specified only the first phrase in the first line of your last mail.

"They are seeing the God in this idol".
I say that God said that He does not have image or shape. That means nobody can see God in a shape such as idol. So how can an idol worshiper can see God in an Idol ?

... Deluded people of vain hopes, vain acts, vain knowledge, whose minds are disordered, and who are inclined to the delusive nature of Asuras and Rakshasas, not knowing my highest nature as great lord of all entities, disregard me as I have assumed a human body. ... BhagavatGita 9:10-14

Yes. Only deluded people of vain hope, vain acts, vain knowledge can only see the God in this idol.

My first point is that the idol worship is against the command of God. That means if a person worship God through idol, God will punish him. So how a person can expect his prayers will be answered by God in a way that God has prohibited ? I have already put my points in the last mail regarding this. Either you don't understand this point or you are purposefully excluding.

Now you said Intention is Good and we can determine or we have to determine :-

Human beings are incapable to determine what is Good and what is Wrong.Yesterday's right will be wrong for a person of tomorrow. God being The Everliving can only know what will be Good and what will be wrong.

Part of the above point, you asked did God mention every poor person’s name. No God did not. But I say that God has clearly explained The Attributes of poor and rich people. Isn't it enough to identify poor and rich people? 

You said "helping the poor is good by any means". Let me ask one question. What if a person stole another person’s money and use it to help a poor person? Can you justify it? So it calls for a very clear guideline. God has clearly specified the guideline on how one can help poor people and it is better to follow only this way.

Even We have read FRS and after implementing bugs came out and then we know requirement was not as we understood.

-If it is from God, then it will not contain any single bug.
-If it does contain a single bug, then it means, either it is not from God or human's words are mixed with God's Words.

Hence, bugs will not come in God's Words and there is no question of humans writing 'the code to fix the bug'.

"Human beings are depicting the meaning, not God."

No. Human beings are not eligible to interpret the meaning of God's Word. Yesterday born, today lived, tomorrow died, silly human is completely and fully incapable of interpreting the meaning of God's words. Here comes the facts of messengers of God. I will explain about this later.

So please think about the two core points

1. Regarding the idol worship.
2. If the intention is good one can do what he wants to do.

Regards
Nisam

Info

One of My Friend Commented -

I think, if we think of our relation ship to GOD similar to our relationship with our parents or dear and near ones, things will get much more clarity. Few examples are below

• Worshiping the creator in their own way  - If your parents like your presence rather and you are sending them monthly cheques or if they like Indian food and you provide them modern fast food, will they happy ? Any one will agree that ideal way of treatment is, we should identify the way they would like to be treated and do at accordingly.

• They are seeing the God in this idol - Imagine you have a beautiful (at heart) mother and father. And you are keeping an idol of a monkey/donkey to remember them. Is it same if we do this to our Creator ?

• God said to help poor - For us this is not the primary thing we are told. we should avoid exploiting the poor at the first place, for that we should ask systematic questions  like how to get rid of greed and arrogance ? For that we should bring in accountability, how we can bring in accountability? There is no other way other than fear of GOD the unseen to bring in real accountability. So primary issue is identifying the God, fear God, fear accountability, live as per His guidance. So any such good will indirectly get linked with our identification of GOD and his Guidance to us.

• We are given enough discriminating power - Slight disagreement here. Though we have some inherent instincts to look for truth, our intellect alone is not enough to discriminate. Today, right and wrong is very much confusing and we typically follow what majority follows or what powerful media says. Honestly speaking, our capability to distinguish right and wrong is almost taken out by education, media and other personal comfort factors.

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Dear Friend

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

Each of the points worth mentioning at this context. A student of scripture can clearly see that God Himself did not expect to be worshiped by the means of any forms. I remember one event during the time of prophet Mohammad. An idol worshiper was traveling by a ship. The ship was about to be sunk by an overwhelming storm. The people on the ship commented :

"None can save you except Allah (One God) Alone.''

Then this man said -

"By Allah, if none can benefit on the sea except Allah then no doubt none can benefit on land except Allah. `O Allah! I promise You that if You bring me safely out of this, I will go and put my hand in the hand of Muhammad and surely, I will find him full of pity, kindness and mercy.'' Reported By Imam Ibn Kathir.

The point is, God who can save from the disaster at Sea, can only save from the disaster at Land.

This kind of incidents can be seen throughout the history of mankind. This kind of human nature is addressed in the Quran.

"And when harm touches you upon the sea, those that you call upon vanish from you except Him. But when He brings you safe to land, you turn away. And man is ever ungrateful." Quran 17:67.

Regards

Nisam

MAIL - 6

My Friend Wrote –

God say worship the creator. Idol worshipers are worshiping the creator in their own way. That is it. It is not like "no we won’t worship creator, we will worship this idol only". They are seeing the God in this idol. You have to understand that point.

Let us conclude this point first. I think this is foremost needed.

Intention is Good and we can determine or we have to determine :- 

God said to help poor. Did god named each poor person??  How do you differentiate between rich and poor. Everything as such is not written in scriptures. God says to help poor. We are given enough discriminating power. Yes sure, there are more complex cases which is little harder to understand. But helping the poor is good by any means, I believe.  

I can also say I will not help poor, because God has not named this poor person in scriptures ,and I am following the scriptures.

Don't think as I am confusing you. This is the actual point. We read these scriptures and We depict the meaning from them. and Then We act . There is something that you put from your side and there always is . Lots of We's  are involved in the process. 

Tailpiece: Even We have read FRS and after implementing bugs came out and then we know requirement was not as we understood. Also, do understand that it is not the same code every one writes for every requirement. God has stated the requirements and the way to live. We read and we understand based on your limits. Human beings are depicting the meaning, not God. 

>> So we cannot say that if the intention is good and it does not harm others, we can do whatever; rather we should inspect whether it is from God or not.

Help is done by different means. Some pays by cash . Some helps by muscle power . Some one forwards a mail :) .  Everybody's intention is good. We have enough knowledge at least in this case to understand what is good and what is bad. That is not directly written in scriptures. Is it ?? 

The point is everything as such is not written in scriptures. There is some involvement from our side involved.

We can continue. :) ...

Friend

MAIL - 5

I Wrote –

Dear Friend

As I said earlier, the proof of any religion is scriptures. I believe that you already know the fact that all the scriptures are from God. It is not the idea of any person(s) lived in the respective time of the scripture.

>>But with Idol worship nobody is insulting God. is it so ??
What I understand is, Yes, it is. It is acting against the command of God and hence it is a kind of insult to God, from a human point of view. Actually God cannot be insulted by any human actions because He is High and He is far superior with respect to the actions of puny humans.

"Nature gives birth to movables and immovables through me, the supervisor, and by reason of that, O son of Kunti! the universe revolves.

Deluded people of vain hopes, vain acts, vain knowledge, whose minds are disordered, and who are inclined to the delusive nature of Asuras and Rakshasas, not knowing my highest nature as great lord of all entities, disregard me as I have assumed a human body.

But the high-souled ones, O son of Pritha! who are inclined to the godlike nature, knowing me as the inexhaustible source of (all) entities, worship me with minds not (turned) elsewhere.

Constantly glorifying me, and exerting themselves, firm in their vows, and saluting me with reverence, they worship me, being always devoted." BhagavatGita 9:10-14

People with the following qualities will only worship God, with Idols.
- People of vain hopes.
- People of vain acts.
- People of vain Knowledge.
- People of disordered minds.
- People who turned to the delusive nature of Asuras and Rakshasas.
- People who consider God as He have assumed a human body !

People with the following qualities will only worship God, without Idols.
- People having high-souls.
- People who truly turn towards God.
- People who know God as the inexhaustible source of all entities.
  - The stone, wood etc by which an Idol is made, is an exhaustible thing.
  - God says that he is inexhaustible.
  - An inexhaustible cannot be represented by an exhaustible thing.
- People who worship God with minds and not turned elsewhere.
Please read the above verses couple of times and think whether Idol worship is the way that God intended or not.

Quran says -

Whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth glorifies Allah (One God) -- the King, the Holy, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Quran 62:1

- All birds are Glorifying God.
- All animals are Glorifying God.
- ...
- All movables are Glorifying God.
- Thunder and Lightning are Glorifying God.
- Storm and Wind are Glorifying God.
- ...
- Stone is Glorifying God.
- Trees are Glorying God.
- ...

As a human being, one should Glorify God and Only God. Since the stone by which Idols are created, themselves are in a state of Glorifying God, how can you expect the idol to take your Glorification to God?

Quran clearly teaches that the movables and the immovables mentioned in the above verse, Glorifies God.

Now, the scriptures should not be written/edited/deleted by any human beings. If it happens then the following things would occur.

1.The scripture will become a collection of saying of God and human beings.
2.It would contain contradiction and errors. Because the person who edited the scripture would be limited/influenced by the time and knowledge that he possesses.

Clearly this is not what God intended. His commands should reach to everyone unaltered.
Now coming to your first point.

I understand that the idol worship is against the command of God. It is disobeying the command of God. Since God has clearly explained how we should worship Him, how one can add to it?


Secondly.

If the intention is good and it does not harm others. This is a very important point.

- You must understand that, the human beings cannot determine what is good or what is wrong.

- If it is so, then today's good would be bad for tomorrow's generation. A man cannot not know what will happen in this world after his death.

- God is ever living, Knows past, present and future. God clearly understands what is good for His creations and what is bad for His creations.

So we cannot say that if the intention is good and it does not harm others, we can do whatever; rather we should inspect whether it is from God or not. If it is from God then we can accept it otherwise we cannot.

Please think about the two points.

By the way, I would like to convey you that there is no room for hatred just because my fellow being believes what he believes. If a person feels hatred just because of this, then I say that the person does not truly believes what he believes. I see that every man has freedom to believe/do etc as long as it does not affect others freedom. Please keep this point higher in your mind throughout our discussion.

I will let you know my view on the other points as we move.

Regards
Nisam

MAIL - 4

My Friend Wrote –

As I said, I understood that there is one God only and he doesn't have shape. This is 100% acceptable to me. Then there is no point in again explaining the concept in Vedas etc as I already understood.

If someone tries to find God in an Idol , it is not against god . That's what I meant. I think you dint get the idea . Gradually people can be me made aware of the same -- One God without shape. But with Idol worship nobody is insulting God. is it so ?? The one is seeing God himself in an Idol. In his mind there is no feeling of hatred. The intention is Good. Whenever the intention is Good and it doesn't harm others, it is ok . This is the idea. You don’t have to support idol worship because you duly understood. But that doesn't mean others are doing anything bad. Their intention is also good. As far as intention is good and it doesn't harm others, I believe it is fine and God won’t be against that.  Focus on the bold part.  It is not the righteous thing to do  but it is not that bad as others depict.

As you can now know, I duly understand the concept of single God.

I hope you can comment on other explanations. Just want to know your viewpoint.

Friend

MAIL - 3

I Wrote –

Dear Friend

I really appreciate you having spent time to think about it and understood that there is only One God. After hearing the speech, still you feel that worshiping idol is not against God. What I understand is that the Vedas itself contains clear proof that idol worship is against God's will. The speaker in the video has made a remarkable effort in bringing the concept of the correct mode of worship mentioned in The Vedas, in The Bible and in the Quran.

Sri Sri Ravisakar said - "Spirituality Requires two things. First is the Authenticity and the second is the Intensity." So my point is, whoever be said whatever, it should be authentic, it should be authentic by authentic scriptures.

For most of the Hindu brothers, the Sun, Moon, Earth, Trees etc are gods or Part of god. But for a student of any scriptures the Sun, Moon, Earth, Trees etc are God's and most importantly, the Sun and the Moon etc are The Sign's of God.

Mahanirvahana Tantra says - 

Because of My affection for Thee I shall speak to Thee of that Supreme Brahman, Who is ever Existent, Intelligent, and Who is dearer to Me than life itself. O Maheshvari! the eternal, intelligent, infinite Brahman may be known in Its real Self or by Its external signs. 3:5-6

What I understand from the above verse is that the Supreme God, i.e. The Brahman should either be known in Its Real Self or by Its External Signs. That is God should be known by the external signs and not worshiped by the external signs. The external signs include the Sun, the Moon, the Sky etc etc.

The Quran also says the same thing. Quran says - 

And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate yourselves to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate yourselves to Allah( One God) Who created them, if you worship Him. Quran 41:37

Quran teaches that - 


- Night is a sign of God, do not prostrate to it.
- Day is a sign of God, do not prostrate to it.
- Sun is a sign of God, do not prostrate to it.
- Moon is a sign of God, do not prostrate to it.
- ...

It also teaches that - 


- Sun itself is obeying God and it cannot answer your prayer.
- Moon itself is obeying God and it cannot answer your prayer.
- ...

Again, we can see that the Vedas teaches that we cannot compare anything with the Almighty God.


Yajurveda says -

There is none to compare with him. There is no parallel to him, whose glory, verily is great, Hiranyagarbha etc. 'May he not destroy us' 'None other than thee' etc Yajurveda 32:3

Quran says the same thing - 

Say: "He is Allah (the) One, Allah the Samad (the Self-Sufficient, upon whom all depend), He begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none comparable to Him.''  Quran 112:1-4
 

I still does not feel any wrong in idol worship. 

You still feel that any wrong in idol worship, because, I think, you have not taken the verses of Vedas and other scriptures, seriously. To my knowledge the verse like "Na tasya pratima asti" meaning "There is no image of Him", calls for the God without any human perceivable form.
 

I don't think for this reason, that person will be sent to hell. Do you think so ?

How one should worship God is already decided by God. Humans, in any have any role in deciding it. So when one act against the commands of God, definitely he will be subjected to the punishment of God.

The other things you mentioned, definitely deserves discussion. But I think that without understanding the core concept of God and how one should worship God, there is no point in discussing other things.

I would like you to think about the above verses. Please not that there are many verses in Vedas that calls the human beings to worship the One God who does not have any shape or image.

Regards
Nisam

MAIL - 2

My Friend Wrote –

I saw the whole set of videos. It was really nice presentation. The concept he explained I have already explored through various books and videos available online itself. And I cent percent agree to it.

But having read that and having understood, I still does not feel any wrong in idol worship. In between, he quotes swami Vivekananda's sentences to back his explanation. Hope you also know swami Vivekananda was not against idol worship. A man worshiping an idol is not against God. He is  trying to see God in it in his own form. There is no hatred in him. There is only Bhakthy and it is a Good Feeling only. I don't think for this reason, that person will be sent to hell. Do you think so ?

>> 5. If you are ready to submit your life to God you can be a Muslim.

In this sense every real Hindu is a Muslim and every real Muslim is a Hindu. The name only differs with what we call. Hindu  have their scriptures and Muslim have theirs. Every scriptures teaches to be nice. And if people start to believe or understand it correctly, the word  Muslim and Hindu can be used interchangeably, I believe.

Having said all this, I would like to put one point also. How this hatred between Hindu Muslim booms ?? one scenario I shall put.

There is only preaching no practicing. I just searched You tube "Converted to hindu" . and I got the following results. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=converted+to+hindu&aq=f See it for yourself. 

When after hearing and someone wants to convert to Islam why don’t these preachers say " Brother/Sister you don't need to convert to Islam to become an Muslim. Just believe in what is taught in your scriptures and then you are a Muslim". And Hindu word can also be used. Because the Word is not important .

But there is no such explanation. Please come to Islam, and with Immense Proud , they are announcing "See a Hindu converted to Islam". 

Every person is not that great to accept that and the result is what you see now. 

Let me know your opinion in this also !!

I searched Converted to Hindu  purposefully . Not by mistake :)  I could have searched converted to ISLAM also , but I opted the other string. FYI.

Friend

MAIL - 1

It is the mail between two friends you are going to read. Hence there is no formal structure for the discussion. Concentrate on the concept and the evidence presented.

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I Wrote -

Dear Friend

I would like you to see the following speech. It clearly explains the concept of God in the three major religions, with proof from scriptures.  Before you start, please note the below points.

   1. Without understanding the concept of God in a religion, you can never understand the teachings of the religion.

   2. The proof of any religion is scriptures. Vedas are the scriptures of Hinduism, Bible for Christianity and Qur'an for Islam.

   3. Unless and until you are ready to learn these scriptures, you will never benefit from it. We learned C++ etc etc from institutions and we read several books; we did not learn it only by the means of speech :) Still we continue to learn FRS and all. That means without reading (not merely hearing) we cannot understand something fully. The same principle is same for religion too.

The link is given below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iWNje2OZ7M

The speech has 8 parts. Please see it fully. First part has some video problem but sound is okay.

From the speech you might be able to understand the following things.

1. All the three religions call the mankind to worship the same One God

2. There is a life after death.

3. There is Heaven for people who did good things and Hell for people who did bad things.

4. A person can be called a Muslim, only when he submit his life to God and not because he is born to a name-sake-Muslim parents.

5. If you are ready to submit your life to God, you can be a Muslim.

Regards
Nisam